Episode #109: Has one of your books ever not made sense? -with Jonathan Auxier
Welcome back! On today’s Kids Ask Authors episode, we are joined bu Jonathan Auxier! Jonathan and Grace will answer this great kid question, “Has one of your books ever not made sense?”
TRANSCRIPT:
Grace Lin: Hello, I'm Grace Lin, children's book author and illustrator of many books, including the middle grade novel When the Sea Turned to Silver and the picture book A Big Moon Cake for Little Star. Today, I'm here with Jonathan Auxier, the author of middle grade novels such as Sweep and Peter Nimble and His Fantastic Eyes, as well as the author the Fabled Stables early chapter book series illustrated by Olga Demidova. Hi, Jonathan.
Jonathan Auxier: Hey, Grace. Nice to talk to you.
Grace Lin: Thank you for coming on today's Kids Ask Authors episode. Are you ready for today's question?
Jonathan Auxier: Not at all.
Grace Lin: Well, too bad, because you're going to get it. Because today's question is from a person named Karen. And Karen asks,
Karen: "Has any of your books not made sense?"
Grace Lin: Has one of your books ever not made sense?
Jonathan Auxier: Oh, man. Karen, what a doozy. That is a big, big question. And I feel like there could be a couple different questions buried inside it, so I'm going to try my best to answer all the possible versions of questions that that question could be. If I'm not making sense right now, buckle up, it's only going to get worse.
Jonathan Auxier: For me with that question, when I think about a book not making sense, it seems like there's two different things that I might be describing when I think a book doesn't make sense. The first way is that sometimes a book and the characters in it, and even the rules of the world that people are in, it doesn't make sense in the very essential level. The people are saying and doing things that don't really reflect normal human behavior or the world has a bunch of rules, but the rules line up and make sense in a way that you can be visualize them.
Jonathan Auxier: And to my thinking, that usually leads to a pretty disappointing story. So, I actually really, really like my stories to make a ton of sense in terms of filling them with people who behave like actual human beings and also trying to create a world that could conceivably be a place where people actually live. And that's one way that a story can make or not make sense. And if I am writing a story that doesn't make sense on that level, honestly, usually that's the first thing I try to fix about it. And if I can't fix that about it, I eventually step away from that story because that's so important to me not just as a writer, but as a reader. I want to feel like I'm seeing the behavior and the language and actions of real people because I want to be able to imagine myself inside the story. Which means all the characters need to be doing stuff that I could imagine doing myself.
Jonathan Auxier: Now, that's one way a story can or can't make sense. And for me, that's very important. I want my story to really make a lot of sense. And if it doesn't, I might end up stepping away from that. But the other way you could be asking that question is if the story is actually about nonsense. The characters might feel grounded and real, the world might feel realistic or in a way that we can imagine it, but the actual theme of what the story is about is not common sense and doesn't make sense. And those are stories I absolutely love.
Jonathan Auxier: One of the things a lot of readers and friends don't know about me is I spent most of my life being absolutely obsessed with Alice in Wonderland. Specifically the second book. There are two Alice in Wonderland books. The first one is called Alice in Wonderland and the second is called Alice Through the Looking Glass in which she climbs through a mirror, into looking glass world where everything is backwards.
Jonathan Auxier: And that second book, I read it when I was about 11 years old for the first time and it was a revelation. I can't exactly explain what happened inside me, but I absolutely loved that book. And this is true. I spent about the next 10, actually longer, about 12 years of my life after reading that book the first time, I would read a chapter from that book every single night before I went to sleep. So, I have literally read this book hundreds of times over all of those years. And that book is nothing but scene after scene character after character, chapter after chapter of Alice encountering incredibly nonsensical figures. Up is down and left is right. She even encounters a queen who perceives time backwards, which is actually a brilliant idea because Lewis Carroll based his whole book off of a chess board and Alice was a pawn who can only move forward, but the character she encounters, a queen, can move in all directions.
Jonathan Auxier: And I became obsessed with that book because I actually think that's the heart of children's literature. My favorite children's books all have a heart and a spirit that celebrates nonsense. When we're young and growing up, we are in a world that's full of adults who are full of common sense who are always telling us the right and the wrong way do things and one of my favorite things as a reader and as a writer is taking all of these common sense people and throwing them into a world where suddenly those old rules don't apply.
Jonathan Auxier: Suddenly up is down and left is right and forwards is backwards. Because then I want to see how those common sense people react. And a lot of my books are actually celebrations of that kind of nonsensical thinking. So, all the way back to the question, "Do my books ever not make sense?" In some ways I make all my books make as much sense as possible, because I want the story to feel grounded and real and understandable as human stories. But in another way, on a thematic way, in terms of shaping the world and the spirit and the message of my books, I'm always, always, always pushing toward more and more nonsense in my stories.
Grace Lin: That's so funny. I love how you talk about the second one, not making more sense. I actually had an interview with Tom Engelbeger and he said something along the same lines. The more it doesn't make sense, the better I know my book is.
Jonathan Auxier: Well again, I think about when I was growing up and there was no shortage of teachers and grownups in my life and my parents telling me the right and wrong way to do things. And I think stories are a great, really safe and healthy place to disappear into a world where those rules don't apply. And for me, that's still enjoyable even though I'm a grownup now and I'm a parent of my own kids. So, I'm probably bossing them around sometimes. It's important for me as a writer to remember what it's like, the pure joy of finding yourself in a place that doesn't quite connect the dots.
Grace Lin: That's why I like writing about fantasy so much, and you as well, anything can happen and it doesn't really have to make sense. A muscle can turn into a swallow, all these things that are nonsense, but they make sense in the magical world that we write.
Jonathan Auxier: I think there's one of other way I would think about this question and it's a little bit of a pivot, but it's something that sparked in my mind. I have a lot of big feelings and sometimes big ideas, but even though I'm pretty good at talking and I can speak very quickly, I'm actually a very slow thinker. And often I get a big feeling or a big idea and I try to tell other people about it. Even people who know and love me, my dearest friends and my family and I tell them I'm so excited or it's so important for me to share this thing inside me. And I will tell it to them and they don't understand what I'm trying to say.
Jonathan Auxier: And that's my fault. It's because I haven't explained it clearly. But it's hard to really overstate just how devastating that is to me. Being misunderstood, trying to share something and then having someone not understand it, is for me a really, really painful feeling and hurts inside.
Jonathan Auxier: And one of the main reasons I write books, and this is 100% true, is I often have an idea inside me that I've tried to share with other people and no one really understands it. And it's not because those people are callous and wrong. It's because I haven't learned the right way to say it. And so for every single one of my books, what I've tried to do is take one of those ideas that I have trouble explaining to people in the world and I find that if I build a story around that idea, I'm also teaching myself how to explain the idea.
Jonathan Auxier: So, in many ways my books are little machines that take my nonsense and then turn them into sense that other people hopefully can understand. If everyone understood me the first time I spoke, I probably would never write a book again. In some ways it's almost important that I experience that disconnect and that little discomfort because that's what drives me to go back and write some of these feelings and ideas into a book in the first place.
Grace Lin: So, I don't know, but I suspect that Karen asking that question in the way that you mentioned, the third way. Because a lot of our listeners tend to be kids that are wanting to write. So, what is it that you do if you start writing something and it's not making sense? Do you have any tips for someone like Karen and how they could help make their writing make more sense?
Jonathan Auxier: Boy, that's such a hard thing. As a writer I still feel this all the time that it's such a delicate balance because part of being a writer is paying attention to whether or not your writing and your story is connecting to other people, but also doing the opposite thing and ignoring what other people think and focusing on getting out what is deep inside you.
Jonathan Auxier: For me, my usual process is that when I start a story, I am all about personal expression and focusing on what I need to say and what I need to do. And I write the story of my dreams. I write everything I ever want in it and then once I've written that down, I can often take a step back and go, "Well, this is just gobbledygook to anyone who sees it. It's going to be confusing. It's a mishmash. They're not going to understand the story or the characters or anything." But.
Jonathan Auxier: I've at least gotten it out of myself. And then I can go back and start asking the question, "Well, how do I make this make sense?" And I don't mean make it rational and logical, but really make it make emotional sense. How can I change things and tweak things so that a reader will feel the same things I felt in creating this. And so it's not about a story being perfectly rigid and logical. It's about, for me, a story creating a harmonious vibration between the storyteller and the reader where we're both feeling similar things as we explore these moments and these scenes and these characters. And I don't have an easy answer for how to do that. But I have found for me that I focus on my own desire to communicate first and then after that I can come back and focus on how other people might receive it. And if I go in the reverse order, it usually makes a story fall apart.
Grace Lin: Yeah, I agree. I think I do similar where like the first draft, because the first draft you write just for yourself and don't worry about if you're making sense or not, but then after you write it, then maybe think about if it makes sense to others and that's maybe when you get somebody you really trust to read it and to see what they think. Somebody you really trust. Somebody who you know wants to help you make a better story and that's the hard part, is realizing that they want to help you make a better story and not to be too hurt when they say, "This part didn't make sense to me."
Jonathan Auxier: Yeah. That is easier said than done to be sure.
Grace Lin: Yeah, definitely. But I think that is definitely a good way to help make your books make more sense.
Grace Lin: Well, thank you so much, Jonathan, for answering today's question. And thank you so much, Karen, for asking it.
Jonathan Auxier: Thanks everybody, bye.
Grace Lin: Bye.
KID BOOK REVIEW: Today’s book review comes from Leora! She is reviewing Sweep: the Story of a Girl and Her Monster by Jonathan Auxier.
This book is about a girl who is a chimney sweep who has no friends and is treated very poorly. After an accident in a fireplace, she runs away and is living in a deserted house, but she is not all alone. I liked this book because it shows that you don't have to look the same or be the same to become friends. You can become friends with anyone, even a monster.
Thank you so much Leora!
More about today’s authors:
JONATHAN AUXIER is a NYT Bestselling author of strange stories for strange children. His first novel Peter Nimble and his Fantastic Eyes was an ABA New Voices pick and a BookPage Magazine "Best Book" of 2011. His bestselling Night Gardener is a Junior Library Guild selection, an ABA IndieNext pick, an Amazon Editor's Pick of the Month, and winner of the TD Book Prize and ILA Book Award. His latest novel, Sweep, received six starred reviews as well as the Governor General’s Award, Charlotte Huck Award, and Sydney Taylor Award. He lives in Pittsburgh with his family and their adorable pet umbrella.
Grace Lin, a NY Times bestselling author/ illustrator, won the Newbery Honor for Where the Mountain Meets the Moon and her picture book, A Big Mooncake for Little Star, was awarded the Caldecott Honor. Grace is an occasional commentator for New England Public Radio , a video essayist for PBS NewsHour (here & here), and the speaker of the popular TEDx talk, The Windows and Mirrors of Your Child’s Bookshelf. She is the co-host of the podcast Book Friends Forever, a kidlit podcast about friendship and publishing (geared for adults). Find her facebook, instagram , twitter ( @pacylin) or sign up for her author newsletter HERE.
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